[Paul]

Greetings:

Recently, as many of you know now, someone attempted to rob J.J. and I at gun point, just after we had returned home from a party, around 1:30am the other night. He walked up with a companion who was only looking on, while he began instruction - Attempted Robbery 101 – How to rob a foreigner at gun point. Here is the thread for those who have not read it: http://www.cebuliving.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1941

I have since had time to ponder that night, determining if I still feel as though I did the right thing. Or, did I do something without truly thinking it through? Now, I will post my views and why I feel the way I do regarding the events that happened. Incidentally, I have had a number of people contact me regarding this, telling me they felt I did the right thing. But, I have also had a few who felt I wasn’t as responsible as I should have been. Well, let’s see how things have run through ol’ Paul’s mind since then.

First, let me go back a bit to let each of you know I have always told J.J. to run away if any sort of altercation ever rose between me and anyone else, Filipino or foreigner. So, I stand by the fact that she did the right thing by listening, and that I acted accordingly (by knocking the guy down), preventing him from entering the home with her inside. I knew once he had gotten inside with a gun, which was possibly quite real and loaded, her life would be in extreme danger. This was not going to happen. Fortunately, the companion just stood there the whole time, obviously needing a good bit more instruction through the AR 101 class.

Since most everyone pretty much knows the rest of the story, I won’t repeat it here. However, I will say this. I have some what a different view on life than many others whom I know. I will live until it is my time to die, no matter what. What I mean, is there is nothing I can do to stop from dying, so I will live my life as best I can until that day. I will not let fear prevent me from doing what I wish to do, go where I wish to go and live how I wish to live. Do not get me wrong. I’m not going to stand on a train track feeling that I will live and the train will derail before hitting me, if it isn’t my time to die. But, there is something else to think about regarding my decision to stand up with a guy who had a gun in his hand.

Someone told me that I could possibly have been shot due to not giving the thief what he wanted. Okay, let’s see where we can go with this. Let’s say, hypothetically, that I gave the guy what he wanted, the bag around my neck containing ATM cards and some cash, although not a lot at the time. But, would this have stopped him from shooting me? I mean, where is the guarantee that he would NOT have shot me after I gave him what he wanted? To me, this would have been giving him not only my possessions, but power. I would have given him more power than the gun (alone) did, as he would have known that I then feared him, which I did not. In fact, he was nothing more than trash on the street to me.

Instead, I took that power away from him, afterward putting fear into HIM. But, I’m sure they still thought they could run away easily and I would not chase them. Wrong. After they began running away, the first thing I did, was to jump on the motorcycle and give chase. I can assure you, they believed they were going to be killed, or at least beaten like Beetle Bailey was by Sarge, so many times over the years. (Beetle Bailey is an American cartoon by Mort Walker, which I often read as a young boy.) I was going to see to it that they saw fear, the same fear they attempted to make me see.

My Advice: In taking the power from those who wield it for the wrong reasons, you are gaining strength in yourself. You are standing up to those who should not cause you fear, but rather deserve to be put down… salvaged if you will. (As you can see, even several days later I know I did the right thing. Would I do it again? Yes, without question.)

Oh, more than one person has approached me stating my post could be taken as premeditation to intentionally kill someone who may try that again. I have not denied that, but my post was really to serve more as a warning to those who rob others.

My last point, and then I will shut up: I ask each of you now, was it not premeditation for those young punks to be walking down the city street with a gun? I’m quite sure they had no intentions of going to a shooting range at 1:30am. No, they knew exactly what they were doing. The mistake they made was approaching me and my wife.

Thanks for taking the time to read this,
_________________
Paul

| Pointman Cebu | Living In Cebu | Cebu Tours |

"Did you know an alligator can turn on a dime? I didn't." - talisayus

"After I get over the original screaming, it's not bad." - By John Shriner

[Sinned]

I only interjected with the premeditation thing as a voice of legal reason. You are an adult; you are free to do as you wish just as long as you also fully accept the consequences of your actions.

My point for doing so was this: You say it serves as a warning, but if a like incident were to re-occur, but this time you managed to follow through with the "warning" (in legal terms, however, it would be called a threat), it could easily be argued by anyone wishing to prosecute that you had every intention of doing just that: kill someone. This is especially true if you took no other available actions to otherwise eliminate the immediate threat to your or your present company's person/property.

Just because the perpetrators intended to commit a crime upon you does not relieve you of your responsibilty.

Again, Philippine law regarding the use of lethal force may differ. I am just stating it from a US standpoint. Either way though, I believe that taking a person's life isn't a trivial matter and should only be exercised as a "last option" solution.

Someone had mentioned that we have the luxury of hindsight and that is most certainly true. We have all sorts of time to analyze the entire incident and formulate possible responses/reactions whereas you were "in the moment" and you only had seconds (if that). I honestly don't know what I would have done in your place. Every situation is different and there are a lot of variables for anyone involved to weigh against the risk of getting one's self hurt or killed much less plan and execute a course of action. I would guess though, that the outcome would be severely limited if your mindset was only to introduce a would-be robber to their maker from the start.

I am just rambling.... please don't take offense.

[Paul]

Hi Dennis, none taken, believe me. In fact, as I stated, there were a number of people who contacted me either through PM, email, or YIM to talk iwth me about it. A number of them pretty well agreed with your comments, which I appreciate. I certainly can appreciate someone being straight with me in their advice and offerings.

The reason I posted this was to let others know whether my view (after the fact) had changed or not. I'm sure it has crossed others minds if I looked at it differently now.

Thanks man, as I always appreciate your comments.
_________________
Paul

| Pointman Cebu | Living In Cebu | Cebu Tours |

"Did you know an alligator can turn on a dime? I didn't." - talisayus

"After I get over the original screaming, it's not bad." - By John Shriner

[Mike S]

I am just stating it from a US standpoint

Sinned, US laws vary from state to state.....here in sunny Florida they just passed a law that you can use like force to protect yourself.....meaning if your life is threatened by a perp with a gun.....as Paul and JJ were.......you can now shoot to kill.....when i say kill i mean just that.......when i took my concealed weapons class the instructor told us point blank....shoot to kill only, never, never shoot to wound someone attacking you.........harsh......maybe but consider this.....even though this person was committing a crime by attacking you he can still bring civil action legally against you and you just might be paying the rest of your life for the prividge of protecting yourself.....easy decision.....not......you only have a few split seconds in which to decide what you are going to do.........do i carry any of my weapons....no.......i know what i'll do and not think twice about it.........but they are at home....and loaded.......oh by the way a concealed weapons permit is not just for guns....it is for ANYTHING considered as a weapon.

Now i don't know about laws there in the Phils......as i have never been there..... yet......

Geeee....wonder if i'll be copied.....edited and posted on another board again........lol.....oh well don't care as i don't read it any more........
_________________
Mike

If it ain't broke....don't fix it.....
Unless it's a broken heart

[Sinned]

Yes, I understand that. I have lived in both California and Arizona and their laws differ from one another considerably. I, in no way, doubt that the justification for the use of lethal force varies from state to state.

However, that was not my point. I was talking about the fact that an intention to kill was publically declared before the event even took place... which could be interpretted as premeditation and an established case of premeditation could cast serious doubt on a justified use of lethal force.
_________________

[talisayus]

[Scuba]

..Any police officer will tell you to just give it up when facing an armed bandit.

People who comply rarely get shot. People who don't comply and become combative probably get shot over 75% of the time.

Even in crack-head neighborhoods where the mugger really doesn't care one way or the other about your life, they usually won't shoot someone who complies.

In the end it's probably better to have an empty wallet to give a thief, and exercise caution late at night.

Why take credit cards with you when you're going to be out late?

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Discretion is the better part of Valor.

- that's all the cliches I can think of

[Mike S]

Sorry Scuba...can't agree with you on this one......the last 4 convenience store owners here in my area were killed and they offered no resistance what so ever..........something about the 'ol saying...dead men tell no tales.......and the fact that you don't get a whole lot more time for shooting and killing someone as you do for committing the crime with a gun to begin with.....ya i know some of them get the death penalty but not that many.
_________________
Mike

If it ain't broke....don't fix it.....
Unless it's a broken heart

[Paul]

Hi Scuba,

In response:

[Visayan Islands]

Paul i have read what you have said,and i really think that you have to be in this position to deal with it....And you dealt with it the way you saw fit....and under these situations only you could have decided on what to do....Now i can see it dont matter what the readers may say....as they always say(you had to be there)....and i like your new pic....funny.

[Blitzen]

First Paul I love you man so dont take any of this as an attack on you. We see things differently in this regard and I wasnt there so I cant even begin to give a true review of your actions. Those situations give you less then a second to think. I know this as I have been in a few. You have to make your mind up and do it quick. So dont think I am saying your wrong. What follows is based on my training and what you have told me so far.

Let me tell you where I am coming from.

US Military VFW, 20 years Martial Arts training, Personal Security, Skip Tracing, body guard, and PI work for close to 7 years.

First there are three types. Pros, Idiots, and Maniacs.

Maniacs I described before. You can see death in their eyes. Its the coldest darkest thing you will ever see. Like they see you as a lower lifeform and have no regards for your life. If you haev seen that look then you wont ever forget it. And your only chance is to fight. Because they will kill you. And also as I have said before, I know you cant stop death but if he comes near me I am ripping his nipples off.

Next is the Pros. Cool and Calm. You can spot them quite easily. Give it up to them. They wont kill you. They are smart. Not risking a murder charge on top of a robbery charge. Robbery they can duck, but murder of a foreigner? They will do everything but kill you. If you had faced a Pro he would have cold cocked you or done dental work on you with his pistol then grabbed your bag while your on the ground counting molars.

Idiots though. They are the worst because they are unpredictable. The worst thing you can do is scare one. When your scared you make mistakes. Same goes for them. They are already agitated enough. Making them more nervous is like swatting a rat. Maybe they will fight and maybe they will run. But you can NOT predict it. Being in law enforcement and having martial arts training I can tell you all those things the police tell you about just handing over your money is not bunk. There is actual proof that the people who hand it over, have a higher chance of survival then those that dont.

Now look at something else. You and several others attacked my beliefs on men that hit women. The common reply was "You dont want to go to jail.". What happened if you had killed the guy. Another thought you need to reflect on. It was a tense moment and I am sure you were just as scared. It is quite possible you could have killed him. Now you got a dead philipino by an american's hands. Yah you got connections but imagine the trouble.

Last thing. Something else I have said before. You need two things to make a crime happen. Desire and opportunity. The criminal brings the desire. And, unwittingly, the victim brings the opportunity. In this case the nice clearly visable bag around your neck that every philipino knows holds money, IDs, Passports, and ATM cards. One reaon, when I get to the philippines I put the bag up. I dont advertise. No point giving them a reason. Now it could have been set up. That is possible. But with the way I saw you wearing that, anyone could have surmised this and preplanned it. It isnt your fault. But advertising what you got is not good. Might as well be carrying a sign that says "Please Rob Me".

So were you wrong? I dont know. I wasnt there. I might have done the samething and I might not have. It sounds like you had a couple of idiots on your hands. So I might have chosen a different direction. But again it would depend on what I saw.

Its up to you to decide if you were wrong or right. Your the one that has to deal with that. For me the life of my wife, daughter, you, JJ, etc is not worth a few thousand pesos and ATM cards I can get cancelled in a ten minute phone call. Because my concience would not be able to handle it if something happened to my wife, daughter or anyone close because of a decision I made. If I lost anyone close to me because I chose wrong I probably wouldnt be able to live with it. But that is me. So no worries mate. If you feel you were right then you probably were. I dont know.

Peace
Blitz
_________________

[Mike Farrell]

Paul, and all.

Decisions must be made on the spur of the moment. No "could have, would have, should have".

The decision is made by instinct. The decision maker lives or dies as a result of his decision. No second guessing is permitted. It is impossible to recreate the same scenario. (No man can stand in the same river, twice.)

Suffice it to say, "Been there, done that."

And for the legal beagles. Tis better to be tried by twelve, than carried by six.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

The proof that Paul did the right thing is that he is still available for Monday morning quarterbacking.

That is a fact!

Any other hypothesis is "iffy".
_________________
Mike Farrell
First Sergeant of Marines
Retired and Reincarnated in the Philippines
Cagayan de Oro

[DScott]

I just received my Dec 2005 Playboy/ There is an excellent article in this issue by Pat Jordan regarding the new law in Florida that Hdmule referred to. "It gives a citizen the right to use lethal force whenever physically threatened anywhere that citizen has a legal right to be. Such a citizen 'has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another, or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony'" The article goes on to state that "Gary Kleck, porfessor of criminology at FSU who refers to himself as an 'orthodox liberal, Clinton voter and card-carrying member of the ACLU' concluded after studying gun violence throughout the U>S since the mid-1970's, that less than 20% of people who defend themselves with guns suffer injuries compared to more than 50% injured for those without guns. And burgulars are successful 14% of the time in homes where residents have guns and 33% of the time in homes where residents don't have guns

[Blitzen]